Discussion:
Help Please - GRP or Aluminium sidewalls?
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Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
I am new to caravanning and will soon be buying my first van. I note
most manufacturers use aluminium as the outside skin of the sidewall
sandwich panels but that GRP (fibreglass) is available as an alternative
at extra cost. Having no experience of caravanning it's not obvious to
me what the relative merits of the two constructions are in practice.
I'd appreciate any thoughts or theories. So far my own are:

Benefits:
*GRP probably doesn't puncture so easily (but it might crack).
*GRP doesn't need seams so leaks are less likely.

Drawbacks:
*GRP's surface can craze after a few years (my GRP car crazed).
*I suspect GRP's heavier, though I'm not sure.
*GRP's probably more dangerous in a thunderstorm.
*GRP won't shield you from electromagnetic radiation if you're sited
near a transmission tower.

Thanks
Stewart.

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David Halley
21 years ago
Permalink
...
Hi Stewart,

I don't know of a manufacturer offering either GRP or Aluminium on the same
van. Swift Group offer a range of vans under the Abbey brand that all have
GRP sidewalls, so there is slightly more to consider such as choice of
furnishings and finishes.

Most new aluminium vans have GRP or ABS front panels, and part or full rear
panels of similar make up.

All GRP vans have aluminium roofs and some have aluminium upper rear panels.

GRP is slightly heavier between 10 and 20kg and slighly more expensive due
to the decals. Aluminium panels come prepainted with stripes.

GRP has been in the mainstream touring caravan arena since 1995 and those
vans are not showing any crazing, yet.

GRP has been in motorhome manufacturing for much longer and, yes, I have
seen some crazing, but only on very old poorly maintained vehicles.

Hope this helps

Cheers

David
Mary Fisher
21 years ago
Permalink
I have no experience of GRP on 'vans or cars and doubt that I ever shall.
But this reply has raised some interesting points which I'd like to know
more about.
Post by David Halley
Most new aluminium vans have GRP or ABS front panels, and part or full rear
panels of similar make up.
I didn't know that any new vans were made of aluminium at all!
Post by David Halley
All GRP vans have aluminium roofs and some have aluminium upper rear panels.
I didn't know that either of course.

I'm not denying it, by the way, just admitting that I don't know everything!
Post by David Halley
GRP is slightly heavier between 10 and 20kg and slighly more expensive due
to the decals.
What's the point of decals?
Post by David Halley
GRP has been in the mainstream touring caravan arena since 1995 and those
vans are not showing any crazing, yet.
GRP has been in motorhome manufacturing for much longer and, yes, I have
seen some crazing, but only on very old poorly maintained vehicles.
How do you maintain GRP to stop it crazing?

Mary
Post by David Halley
Cheers
David
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mary Fisher
I have no experience of GRP on 'vans or cars and doubt that I ever shall.
But this reply has raised some interesting points which I'd like to know
more about.
Post by David Halley
Most new aluminium vans have GRP or ABS front panels, and part or
full
Post by Mary Fisher
rear
Post by David Halley
panels of similar make up.
I didn't know that any new vans were made of aluminium at all!
Post by David Halley
All GRP vans have aluminium roofs and some have aluminium upper rear
panels.
I didn't know that either of course.
I'm not denying it, by the way, just admitting that I don't know everything!
Post by David Halley
GRP is slightly heavier between 10 and 20kg and slighly more
expensive due
Post by Mary Fisher
Post by David Halley
to the decals.
What's the point of decals?
Post by David Halley
GRP has been in the mainstream touring caravan arena since 1995 and those
vans are not showing any crazing, yet.
GRP has been in motorhome manufacturing for much longer and, yes, I have
seen some crazing, but only on very old poorly maintained vehicles.
How do you maintain GRP to stop it crazing?
Mary
Post by David Halley
Cheers
David
Mary,
Post by Mary Fisher
I didn't know that any new vans were made of aluminium at all!
I've discovered that most new British-built caravans have sidewalls that
are constructed from panels that can best be described as a three layer
sandwich: the 'filling', if you will, is a structural or semi-structural
wooden space frame the spaces of which are packed with thermal
insulation, typically cut polystyrene sheet about 20mm thick. One side
of the sandwich filling is bonded to thin plywood; covered in decorative
fabric/veneer it becomes the inner wall of the caravan. The other side
of the sandwich filling is bonded to a thin weatherproof skin which
forms the outer surface of the caravan. It is the nature of this
weatherproof skin that was the original subject of this posting. Most
newly-built British caravans use very thin (1.2mm or so) enamelled
aluminium for this outer skin. Overall the sidewall panel thickness is
typically around 25mm.

I may be wrong, but as I understand it the more durable Continental
caravans like Hymer do not have a structural wooden space frame. Instead
they use substantial marine plywood for the inner wall. They still use
thin aluminium for the outer skin but not requiring a structural space
frame enables them to fill the entire inside of the sandwich with
polyurethane foam. Not only is the thermal insulation better but so is
the waterproofing: if the outer aluminium skin is damaged water still
can't get in because there are no gaps in the foam. The rot proof
polyurethane foam is non-porous and fully bonded to the marine ply on
one side and the aluminium on the other, so even if water seeps in
around a window it is trapped right there. I assume this can eventually
damage the marine ply in the immediate area but I would have thought a
damp check would pick this up long before anything serious occurred. The
beauty is the problem is localised and can't spread into the structure
as it does in British models. As you can probably tell, I consider this
to be a superior method of caravan construction but it does have a major
disadvantage: weight. The thick marine ply inner wall which gives the
caravan its strength and longevity also increases its weight; so much
that most cars can't tow it!

I've heard that one Continental company are now trying out a composite
alternative to aluminium and GRP for the caravan's outer skin but I
don't have any further details. Personally, I'd like them to find a
light weight alternative for Hymer's marine ply.

As you can tell, although I'm new to all this I have been doing some
research -- I thought I'd share.

Regards, Stewart
Mary Fisher
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by David Halley
Post by Mary Fisher
Post by David Halley
GRP is slightly heavier between 10 and 20kg and slighly more
expensive due
Post by Mary Fisher
Post by David Halley
to the decals.
What's the point of decals?
No-one's answered that! :-)
...
But that's just like the old caravans - our 1960s and our 1970s are exactly
like that - except that before Spouse remade them with new frameworks and
ply inside and with pu foam insulation/strengthening - they were filled with
glass fibre and lined with hardboard.

The outer walls are still thin enamelled aluminium.

But they look very different from modern caravans which we've seen, which I
assumed were all grp because of the finish, especially the textured
surfaces.
...
I've left your comment above because it seems that Spouse's gut feelings and
subsequent work are the equivalent of continental design. He didn't use
marine ply but the whole units are stiffer and stronger and, we feel, more
waterproof than they were before. We reckon they'll see us out and he had a
smashing time restoring them.

I realise that I'm going a bit off topic here but it might interest whoever
reads this that when he first mooted the idea of using pu foam as a
filler/glue he was told it mustn't - couldn't - be done for various reasons.
He had some experience of the technique so went ahead. Fishers are nothing
if not okkard. It was a 100% success. The doubters were proved wrong and I'd
recommend this method to anyone undertaking an old caravan restoration.
Post by David Halley
As you can probably tell, I consider this
to be a superior method of caravan construction but it does have a major
disadvantage: weight. The thick marine ply inner wall which gives the
caravan its strength and longevity also increases its weight; so much
that most cars can't tow it!
The ply Spouse used was less dense than the original hardboard as well as
being stronger. The result of replacing the hardboard was a lighter unit. It
did take a bit of work in kerfing the roof panels to make them the right
profile but the result was a smooth curve which has been admired.
Post by David Halley
As you can tell, although I'm new to all this I have been doing some
research -- I thought I'd share.
And I appreciate it, thank you. You've answered some of my questions. Next
time I see a modern unit in a service station car park I'll have a closer
look at the sides.

Mary
Post by David Halley
Regards, Stewart
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
...
semi-structural
...
restoration.
...
Sounds like your spouse is a good man. I hope one day I'll be that
enterprising.
Post by Mary Fisher
How do you maintain GRP to stop it crazing?
OT. As I mentioned previously, I once had a GRP car; it crazed without
me doing anything to it, but then maybe that's why it crazed. It really
did live up to its reputation of Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious but I
still loved it. But I won't polish anything.
Post by Mary Fisher
What's the point of decals?
OT. I'm sure someone else must have brought this up before I ever looked
at this NG but shouldn't the question be "Why are caravans always
white?. Judging by Tesco's car park, white is not a popular colour;
silver(ish) seems the most prevalent.

Stewart
Mike
21 years ago
Permalink
...
Stewart,
My Avondale developed crazing soon after I bought it (now three years old).
Avondale repaired it, and it hasn't failed again. It was failure of a small
area of the gel coat this is the final coloured gloss coating. Some early
caravans suffered badly from this. Like all surface finishes over time and
the action of the sun the colour fades slightly and the surface goes dull
but this can be remedied with a light rubbing down with say Tee Cut or a
polish designed for fibreglass but over crazing means a complete new gel
coat. Also you must differentiate between crazing and cracks. Cracks may be
indicative of some structural failure of the underlying support such as
rotten wood framing.
Having said all this when the continentals can produce a fully British style
van. Not necessarly with three windows in the front which a fault liability
(the more openings the higher the fault liability). I will get one.
MikeS
Mick
21 years ago
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:58:33 +0000, Mike passed on the following gem:

-snip-
Post by David Halley
Post by Mary Fisher
How do you maintain GRP to stop it crazing?
-snip-
Post by David Halley
Stewart,
My Avondale developed crazing soon after I bought it (now three years old).
Avondale repaired it, and it hasn't failed again. It was failure of a small
area of the gel coat this is the final coloured gloss coating.
I've a 25 year old GRP boat and the only crazing is around stress bearing
areas - where the stanchions are fastened to the deck etc. This is pretty
typical of boats in general - so I don't thinks any inherent reason why
modern GRP should craze (although I know that it was a big problem with
some of the early GRP car bodies). With my boat, a rub down with a 'boat
rubbing' compund and a polish once a year has proved more than adequate.

Cheers

Mick
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mick
I've a 25 year old GRP boat and the only crazing is around stress bearing
areas - where the stanchions are fastened to the deck etc. This is pretty
typical of boats in general - so I don't thinks any inherent reason why
modern GRP should craze (although I know that it was a big problem with
some of the early GRP car bodies). With my boat, a rub down with a 'boat
rubbing' compund and a polish once a year has proved more than
adequate.
Post by Mick
Mick
Thanks Mick.
Sounds like I shouldn't worry so much.
Stewart

bill lord
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mike
Having said all this when the continentals can produce a fully British style
van. Not necessarly with three windows in the front which a fault liability
(the more openings the higher the fault liability). I will get one.
Go and have a look at the Hymer Nova vans, the 390 and 470 are fully
UK style 2 berths, the 530DB and the 545db are classic fixed bed vans,
The 570 a 4 berth end bathroom. Then the Swing 466 is another fixed
bouble bed van. If you look at Burstner vans I was impressed at how
many were like the UK vans.


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Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
...
liability
Post by David Halley
(the more openings the higher the fault liability). I will get one.
MikeS
Thanks Mike.
I appreciate the info.
Stewart
Mary Fisher
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Stewart
Post by Mary Fisher
What's the point of decals?
OT. I'm sure someone else must have brought this up before I ever looked
at this NG but shouldn't the question be "Why are caravans always
white?. Judging by Tesco's car park, white is not a popular colour;
silver(ish) seems the most prevalent.
Silver caravans. now there's a thought.

I rather fancy one painted to simulate ashlar, with castellations. And a
garderobe shoot.

Mary
Post by Stewart
Stewart
bill lord
21 years ago
Permalink
...
The thickness of the skin is no problem to the overall strength of the
panel, The main problem with this system is the wooden frame which if
( should that be when ) water finds a way through the various seams
allows the water to travel along the full lenngth of the wall with the
wood going rotten in the process. If the frame were aluminium or some
other such material or even not present at all the transfer of water
would be very difficult. Have a look at the way the wall in a Hymer
caravan is made, it discourages leaks but should it ever find a way
through there is nowhere for the water to go.


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Mike
21 years ago
Permalink
...
My Avondale has aluminium sides fibreglass front end and roof I wish it had
fibreglass sides.
MikeS
Lex M
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mike
My Avondale has aluminium sides fibreglass front end and roof I
wish it had fibreglass sides.
Like this?
http://members.home.nl/l.h.meuldijk/biodbv/english/index.htm
--
Regards, Lex
http://biod.net
http://www.caravanhandboek.nl
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Lex M
Post by Mike
My Avondale has aluminium sides fibreglass front end and roof I
wish it had fibreglass sides.
Like this?
http://members.home.nl/l.h.meuldijk/biodbv/english/index.htm
--
Regards, Lex
http://biod.net
http://www.caravanhandboek.nl
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
Interesting little beast. I'd never heard of Biod, but then I am a
newcomer. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.

Incidentally, I was surprised to see they also list "no protection
against lightning" as a disadvantage of GRP. Maybe I'm not the only
paranoiac out there ;-)

Cheers, Stewart
Lex M
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Stewart
Interesting little beast. I'd never heard of Biod, but then I am a
newcomer. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.
To my best knowledge there are 4 BIODs in the UK:
2 vintage models, 1 300 (1984), 1 420TD (1998).
The owners bought their van in NL, put the numberplate on and returned
to the UK. It appears to be as simple as that :-)
Post by Stewart
Incidentally, I was surprised to see they also list "no protection
against lightning" as a disadvantage of GRP. Maybe I'm not the only
paranoiac out there ;-)
It is the only disadvantage (I know). All-alu vans are protected
(Faraday cage) against lightning.
More ironic is the attribute 'roof not suitable to walk on'.
Because some think that the fact that you can walk on Hobby roofs,
proves its quality ;-)
--
Regards, Lex
http://biod.net
http://www.caravanhandboek.nl
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
...
the
Post by David Halley
same
Post by David Halley
van. Swift Group offer a range of vans under the Abbey brand that all have
GRP sidewalls, so there is slightly more to consider such as choice of
furnishings and finishes.
Most new aluminium vans have GRP or ABS front panels, and part or
full
Post by David Halley
rear
Post by David Halley
panels of similar make up.
All GRP vans have aluminium roofs and some have aluminium upper rear
panels.
Post by David Halley
GRP is slightly heavier between 10 and 20kg and slighly more
expensive due
Post by David Halley
Post by David Halley
to the decals. Aluminium panels come prepainted with stripes.
GRP has been in the mainstream touring caravan arena since 1995 and those
vans are not showing any crazing, yet.
GRP has been in motorhome manufacturing for much longer and, yes, I have
seen some crazing, but only on very old poorly maintained vehicles.
Hope this helps
Cheers
David
David,
My Avondale has aluminium sides fibreglass front end and roof I wish it had
fibreglass sides.
MikeS
Mike,
Why would you prefer fibreglass sides? Please explain.
Stewart
Mike
21 years ago
Permalink
...
Stewart,
ON my van you only have to look at the sides for them to dent. I dented mine
whilst putting the awning up by lightly touching the side. This would not
have happen if the side where fibreglass also repairing aluminium is
difficult.
I did get these dents filed and paint sprayed. This would have been
impossible if the damage had happened on an area which has the bands of
ripples running the length of the van, which are there to give strength
because the aluminium is so thin.

Continental van with aluminium sides generally are much stronger and are in
some cases so called hammer strong.
MikeS
Roy
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Mike
ON my van you only have to look at the sides for them to dent.
Continental van with aluminium sides generally are much stronger and are in
some cases so called hammer strong.
MikeS
I totally agree with the above having previously owned from new a 'Chateau'
which was replaced by a new 'Swift', after 5 years of each the Chateau had
suffered only a few small stone chips despite being in the firing range of
footballs at one comercial site! whereas the Swift, despite being very
careful with, seems to breed minor dents without any assistance!
--
Roy

Protected by Mailwasher, Spampal & Newsgroup Filters - I don't get many
messages!
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by Roy
Post by Mike
ON my van you only have to look at the sides for them to dent.
Continental van with aluminium sides generally are much stronger and
are
Post by Roy
Post by Mike
in
some cases so called hammer strong.
MikeS
I totally agree with the above having previously owned from new a 'Chateau'
which was replaced by a new 'Swift', after 5 years of each the Chateau had
suffered only a few small stone chips despite being in the firing range of
footballs at one comercial site! whereas the Swift, despite being very
careful with, seems to breed minor dents without any assistance!
--
Roy
Thanks guys. That's the practical sort of experience I was hoping to
capture with this posting.
Stewart
Doc
21 years ago
Permalink
...
---****----
As David says, GRP is certainly heavier than Aluminium, but it MAY have
advantages in repairing minor bumps and scratches, and in strength.

Cosmetically, the GRP 'sides' of a 'van appear to be more bumpy and less
smooth than an Aluminium outer skin.

However, Cristal Caravans (part of the Hymer Group) were showing (at the EC
show) a new outer skin material for the walls of their upper range 'vans,
which was a composite of aluminium and GRP sandwiched together. They showed
some ball-bearing drop tests, to simulate hail-stones, which showed
impressive evidence of resistance to denting. Supposedly they have
exclusive rights to this material (from Euromax) for one year. Looked very
good to me!!

Cheers, Doc.
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
...
Thanks Doc, that's really useful info. I'll be visiting GMEX next month
so I'll have a good look.

Regards, Stewart
Stewart
21 years ago
Permalink
Post by David Halley
Post by Stewart
I am new to caravanning and will soon be buying my first van. I note
most manufacturers use aluminium as the outside skin of the sidewall
sandwich panels but that GRP (fibreglass) is available as an
alternative
Post by David Halley
Post by Stewart
at extra cost. Having no experience of caravanning it's not obvious to
me what the relative merits of the two constructions are in
practice.
...
Thanks David,
Post by David Halley
All GRP vans have aluminium roofs and some have aluminium upper rear panels.
I didn't know that, though I suspected the roofs were still aluminium.

Actually, it's Abbey that are causing my dilemma: I like their vans but
I'm not sure about the wisdom of GRP sidewalls when just about everyone
else uses aluminium - I feel there must be a reason, even if it's not
obvious to me.

Stewart
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